S1. Ep19 - Business Tips For Using AI Legally

Katie: Welcome to the AI Automations for Business Podcasts. We're your hosts, Katie and Null, and we'll be discussing how you can use AI for your business along with the latest news, updates and automations to help you stay ahead of the curve, allowing you to grow and scale your business more efficiently. Please be sure to subscribe and I hope you enjoy this episode. Hello, welcome back to another episode. Hello, hi, I'm Katie, and I've got Noel here with me as well. Hey, Noel.

Noel: Hello.

Katie: You've also got a very special guest with us this week. It's Lucy Wheeler, aka Lucy Legal. Hi, Lucy.

Lucy Wheeler: Hello, thank you so much for inviting me on.

Katie: Thank you so much for being here, Lucy. I'm really excited to talk with you today. We're going to be talking all things, AI, and keeping it legal within our business, but also protecting ourselves because so many of us are using AI in different ways within our business, but not just us. Also, you know, we might be running into AI from other business owners. And I don't think really a lot of us have thought about how we can protect ourselves, our clients, when we're using AI. So that's why we've got Lucy with us today. And I'm really excited to get the conversation going. So we were just having a quick little chat before we press record. So Noel and I have gone through Luce's AI legal toolkit training, which is fantastic. And over dinner last night, that's what Noel and I were discussing, believe it or not.

Noel: It's exciting times.

Lucy Wheeler: That's what happens when you work with your partner, isn't it? I suppose. Or what it should say there is it's just so good, everyone is talking about it. Yes, Lucy, that is it. That is it.

Katie: And we both were like, you know, having discussions about little things. We were like, oh, like when Lucy said this and I was like, I know, oh my goodness, it was like so interested. So I'm going to start first, if that's all right with you, Noel.

Noel: Yeah, you go first, yeah. Okay.

Katie: So what I'm really interested to discuss with you, Lucy, is I think so many business owners now are using AI like chat GPT to help them with content. So whether that's coming up with content for them or co-creating content with them. So it could be like for social media, emails, or maybe it's courses, programs. And I have. hadn't really thought about when you're using something like chat GPT to help you co-create, do we actually own that content? Like who actually owns it if we haven't fully created it ourselves?

Lucy Wheeler: That is such a great question. And I think it comes back to thinking about the principle of copyright. So in terms of like ownership, ownership relates to your intellectual property and whoever is the creator of something is the owner. So copyright belongs to the person who's created it. And that's fine if that person is a person. So if you've got a graphic designer and they design something for you, they own it. And you might then think, well, hang on a second, I want to own it because they've created it for my business. So you'd have a contract with them. And they can pass the ownership to you usually when you've paid their invoice. But the difficulty comes now in this scenario, if one of those people or one of the elements creating, or you say co-creating isn't actually a person, then who is it that owns it? And the answer is that it isn't necessarily clear, and it's going to depend on the AI model, but largely you're not likely to be the owner if you're not the sole creator, because as you just pointed out, you either created it yourself or AI has created it itself, or there's a co-creation element. And therefore, or if there's a co-creation element, there's a co-ownership element there too. And you might think, oh, well, that's fine. I know that it's fine for me. I know that my captions that I've created or my emails or however you've used it. I don't really need to, need to own those. It doesn't really necessarily matter to me. But the problem that sits behind a lot of this is that other people are doing the same thing with these tools. And if the AI tool gives you something that it has taken from other places, which we all know it may do because it will scale the internet and take the best information or the information it thinks from websites, it therefore has potentially taken IP from another website or somewhere else and given it to you. And it doesn't own that content either. And I think that's where the really interesting conversation comes is because it's not the sense that it's stolen. and IP used from the chap DPP, for example. It's not, but it's the case that it's taken information that it doesn't own either. It's just potentially even been given it, and it's not available from the website. It depends what learning model has been used within that AI tool.

Katie: Yeah. Okay, so how can we find out if we own it? So is that just looking at the language model that we are using to, you know, look at what their policies are and guidelines are? Yeah.

Lucy Wheeler: So each tool that you're using is going to be different. And I think that we have to be really careful here because so many, I mean, it's a world of entrepreneurs, which obviously I love, that's what I do, I protect them, I help them, I support them. Entrepreneurs have jumped on this and everybody's building AI chatbots and supports and AI wizards. aren't they? Everybody's doing that. And I don't think that they have even necessarily put terms in place all the time to be clear as to what content is being created from that tool. And I don't know, you may be able to advise more on that in terms of whether you're seeing people really cover this element off. Because I'm not seeing people even talk about it, which I think is why you've asked me to come up. Yeah.

Katie: I'm not seeing people talk about it. Have you know?

Noel: Yeah, definitely not. No. I've just seen lots of. outputs. I've not seen anything that says, oh, by the way, this is AI content or, you know, this is something that's been created by, you know, this isn't a human, that I haven't seen any of that. There are some platforms that do it that make you do it, but a lot don't do they, or don't at the moment.

Lucy Wheeler: Yeah, and of course, I think that's, I suppose there's two elements here, isn't there, there's the output that comes from it, that there's, then there's, there's guidelines as to whether you have to then disclose and say, I used AI to write this email. But then there's the other element sort of, I'm talking like a step further back to the user where they're inputting. What are they going to get out? Do they own that bit that they're getting out or not? And as I said, you might think, well, it doesn't really matter to me. It's only an email. But there's the infringement element. But I think it does really matter to a lot of entrepreneurs if you are in a space such as social media and content creation. Because if you're using that for clients, and you take something from an AI tool, and that's been taken from somewhere else, they're going to be the ones infringing because they're plastering all over social media or putting it through email marketing, and someone's going to say, hang on a second, these are my emails, how did you get a hold of these? You've obviously copied them, and it may have come from an AI-supported element that you've used to create that initial content.

Katie: Yeah, something you just said then, Lucy, made me think of something else. So for social media managers who are creating content for other people's businesses, so for their clients, if they are using, say, AI, so let's go with just chat GPT because I feel like it's the one that most people use, if they are using chat GPT to create content for a client, and then they're saying to their client, these are your captions. you know, I've made graphics or videos in Canva or whatever. But the captions themselves, like what is the, I guess, the legal part of that? Because that then gets quite confusing because the social media manager hasn't actually created them themselves. Exactly.

Lucy Wheeler: And this is the key point. And I think you're right to jump on this because, I think this, you can then begin to think, oh, my goodness, this is such a grace and how a social media manager is ever going to continue a business. But we have to pause for a moment to think that what happened if you take AI away? So like what happened if you were co-creating with somebody else before or what if a social media manager created your content before? You didn't put a disclaimer on them before saying, I didn't write this post. I had some help my social media manager did it. We didn't ever disclose that

Katie: probably. No.

Lucy Wheeler: And I'm not saying that what people pretend that they write every email. But it's kind of accepted that most people aren't, especially if you're a founder-led business, you're not doing every single role in your business yourself. So it's accepted that you'd have some support. But I think what's really key is that you aren't someone, for example, shouting loudly. We don't use AI. I don't use AI. I'm people kind of trying to say, like, I'm an organic business. I'm like, organic and AI aren't the same thing. But okay, do you know, like they're trying to say, I'm really grassroots. And this is the way I don't, we're not using AI. Like people say, want to use it and that's fine if you don't want to embrace it but you don't want to be saying that on the one hand but then have members in your team who are using it every day and it's actually generated from there because there'll be that issue

Noel: yeah that is such a valid point about yeah I don't know who who's doing what do you

Lucy Wheeler: no and as I say I don't think that there's a there's nothing wrong with using it it's just it's just about being really careful just in case for example, you put something into there and it comes out, something comes out that someone else has already done because I've asked it the same question. And you might think, well, that's never going to happen. But I've already had a client say to me that their whole course, like landing page, their sales page for a course has been copied. And when, like, we wrote the email back and said, this is copied. It clearly is. It's clearly been copied almost word for word. They've just to say their own name in and program name. And they came back and said, I got it, I got it from chat GPT. I didn't take it from you. To which my client said, well, I never put that in chat GPT. And they said, somebody else must have done it. And then that's the difficulty, isn't it? Because we don't even have, we don't have control over anything anymore. And I think we'd be very naive to think almost that there's any original ideas, that everything potentially has been put into chat GPT. And that's the problem is that someone, if someone is looking for a sales page and say, can you provide me a highly converting sales page to Jack DBT, I mean, come on. It didn't just regurgitate my client's sales page that did not happen. It did not give it them word for work when there's so many other sales pages out there. But what do you do when that's in the public domain and potentially it could have pulled in from that page? There's no way of proving that that person copied it from the URL. or from my client's website or it did come through chat GPT.

Noel: But also interesting at say, Tommy, it's not that, yeah. I think it's just a shift now.

Lucy Wheeler: Yeah, the way we're working, isn't it? Yeah,

Noel: yeah, definitely, yeah. It's good to know how models, where it gets all that data from, isn't it? I thought that's kind of, they just say, oh, yeah, we've got it from the internet. And it's so, yeah, but where, which bits? You know, no one opted in for this when Open AI first released, you know, chat GPT and things like that. So, yeah, it's interesting to figure out where it all came from. Yeah.

Katie: So kind of on that theme where we kind of didn't sign up for things, I'd love to talk about AI note takers. Because it seems now every time I'm on like a Zoom call, like for either a coaching call, like a group coaching call or for a masterclass or something, there's always someone there with an AI note taker. And I guess what I want to ask is like what are the potential risks or considerations of using an AI note taker? and how can we ensure that we have the right permissions and those safeguard and policies in place when it comes to AI note takers in like data processing and consent?

Lucy Wheeler: And this is another really great topic. And I think something that we're using in our day-to-day lives and perhaps hadn't necessarily noticed apart from if you are in one of those sessions and there seems to suddenly be double the amount of people and you're like, oh no, that's them and their note-taker. And everybody arrives, as you say, with a note taker. And what I don't think necessarily the person who's leading the session or the people who are in the session realize is that everything that's being captured there is being captured and potentially held and stored somewhere. It might be deleted straight away, but it's potentially going to be stored. And therefore, the information that's captured is personal identifiable information and it's going to be dealt with not necessarily by their, AI Act, but it might be, but it's GDPR, which we all know, and don't love, but on the GDPR data protection legislation that's enforced across the world, okay? And everybody has rights as to how their data is being held, managed and stored. And if you are running a workshop, a master class, mastermind, whatever it is, a training, and somebody comes into that session with their AI note taker, you are allowing them to hold that personal information that relates to your clients, okay because they're they're going to their note takers going to store it and that then becomes a risk because there's no relationship no commercial or contractual relationship or really the key thing here there's no duty for them to protect that information because you don't necessarily don't normally have contracts between you and other people in the mastermind it's normally just unilateral between you and the person that you're working with yeah and so the risk is that everybody's going to have a copy of that note. And it might, firstly, might not be correct, might not be accurate, because it's not always, or the nuance of the context. Maybe it's a summary that's been taken, and therefore it doesn't quite say what you said it said. Or it might be that you're sharing information that you don't want other people to necessarily have a note of. So it's really important if you're leading a session that you are really firm as to what your policy is on having an AI note taker for other people. So you might say, I'm going to take the note. but other people can't. And this is where it's really important for you. If you're someone who is thinking, well, I don't want to use AI. It feels complicated. It feels like there's lots of things that it's not quite bedded in. Yet this is probably still going to affect you. This is one of the areas where people will come to the sessions with note takers and you're going to have to decide whether to allow them in or not allow them. And it may be that you then thinking, well, I'll just not allow anyone. I don't want the note taken. It's not private. But that will cause issues because if you do allow a note and you then circulate a note, you are going to have to check it for accuracy. Or you're going to have to put something at the top that says this note has not been checked for accuracy. And you're going to have to make sure it's not being recorded as a fact. And you have to be clear as to how long you're going to store it for and keep that information. And who's going to be able to have access to that? So you might think that sounds like an extra job I don't need. So I'm not going to do it. But then someone will come to the session and they will say, I need an AI note taker because I've got certain accessibility requirements that I can't participate fully in the session or whatever it is. And they'll say, I have these needs and you need to support me. And you need to know then as a business owner whether you do have to make those adjustments for them or not. And there's new legislation, I'm sure you're aware, that's just come out in EU relating to disability and accessibility. and so you need to be aware as to what your obligations are then and to whether you do need to make reasonable adjustments or not and what they may look like.

Noel: Yeah. I guess there's also the part as well, like you need to, there's some of the main platforms that people use for like note takers. So like fireflies is one of the ones that most people seem to use. So it's kind of like you need to go out and check all of their compliance to make sure that you're happy using that first. So, like, is it GDPR compliant? Well, that one's yes. So we're happy to use that. But then, like, four days ago, chat GPT on the Mac app, released their own note taker recording thing. And it's like, well, where do I find all the information for this? So it's kind of like you need to, you know, go out and check everything just to make sure that you're happy with it first, I guess. And then, you know, at least if you're happy and understand it, then you're, you know, happy for other people. they're maybe using the same app or, you know, or using that going forward. Yeah,

Lucy Wheeler: definitely. And I think it's just, you just raise something really important there because it's that awareness of thinking, I need to check this. And which platforms can you trust or providers can you trust? They're offering these solutions. And you'd like to think that the bigger ones can be trusted. But they may not even have got all the compliance in place yet to tell you. And obviously, remember, a lot of the things we're seeing are coming over from America and they are different data privacy legislation. The UK is still very much aligned with the EU and has adopted the GDPR legislation from the EU version. They've got the UK GDPR. But that's not the case. There are different data protection legislation in the US. So it's not just simply a case of going, they're really big or this is Google. This is, this is come through through whatever to just say, oh, it's going to be fine. And it's not necessarily a huge job. You can say to people, this is how it's going to be stored, it explains it on their website, and you can link to the privacy policy of that AI tool. But you'd need to have this awareness that there are other things because it is a legal requirement in the UK, if you're a UK business owner, that you tell people how you are handling or managing and storing their data. And if that data is something they're saying on a call, then it's important that you're telling them.

Noel: Yeah. I guess also from an automation perspective as also. A lot of people that we work with, they'll use their note takers like on a sales call as like an example. And then they'll then use the output from that call to then create like a proposal, maybe a quotation document. So then you kind of then need to understand like the security and compliance for the tools that they then use after. So I did a very quick bit of Googling before we hit record. And open AI, they've got GDPR. That's all good. You know, We're happy with that. Fireflies the same. But if you then use Gemini at any point in there, Google state, they say, oh, well, we're kind of, you know, we're kind of aware of it, but we're not actually compliant. So you kind of need to make, I guess, or people building automations to understand every step and where the information is being shared, I guess.

Lucy Wheeler: Definitely, because I think I maybe just because I've just created the AI legal toolkit, but I get served a lot of information about people doing AI, elements and they're creating their own AI assistance or their AI bots or whatever it might be to support people of business. And I don't think many, I'm not going to say any, but I don't think many of them will have done even the bit that you've just done there to search to check that compliance ease or even if it's them creating it, created it themselves and they know what's happening with the data. And I think that's the thing about these models. It's happening. It's here to stay. It's not something that you can just go, I can't keep up because we probably did feel like that about GDPR when it came in 2018. Like we probably thought, how are we going to get our heads on it? I definitely felt like that, Lucy, 100%. Yeah, and it feels like it's another thing to add to the list. And that's why I think having these kind of conversations is really, really helpful to think, well, what actually practically matters to me and where's the impact going to be? Because no one's trying to do anything deceitful. No one's trying to say that they didn't write an email or anything like that. and if they have to put a disclosure on, then I'm sure most people will. And I think it's been really interesting that they add a layer of complexity, the law, and then other businesses are doing other things to try and make elements more transparent. So, for example, not only do you have to check what the legal requirements are, but companies like META are requiring certain disclosures on their images of photographs and videos that go one step further than what the law necessarily requires at the moment and they require a disclaimer or a disclosure on certain content to make it really clear that AI has been used but I don't think many people are even seeing those coming in even though it's really clear that AI has been used.

Noel: Yeah. Yeah, you get tuned in to, you can easily spot it, can't you? It could be an image and there could be someone there with seven fingers you could have disclosed that but yeah i already know

Katie: you you actually showed me on on the weekend i think no it was for yes it was for a restaurant wasn't it and i think the headline was something like join the crowd yeah

Noel: join the crowd our new uh we've basically they reopened the the business and they were like there was like people sat outside and picnic benches going hey come and join all these people you know and try out new burgers or whatever and then you zoomed in you were like oh my word you know there was people with like misshapen faces you know three arms six legs oh hold on yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so that whole campaign yeah yeah yeah but that was like a proper i think it was a sponsored sponsored post yeah so yeah yeah so that whole

Lucy Wheeler: campaign hadn't been well there's a number of things so on ads you have different set of rules to normal content but on ads content you have to disclose you're meant to even disclose when a caption has been generated using AI any element of an ad he's meant to have a content so what you're saying is that whole marketing campaign was essentially fake saying come and join the crowd and there's nobody there that's really it's really hard isn't it because that kind of thing is misleading because suggesting that there's a crowd of people waiting outside a restaurant because everybody wants to join is misleading and that kind of thing and massively damage your reputation and if they put a disclaimer on it saying come and join the crowd and then just done like a joke that people are like oh okay yeah they're pretending there's a crowd because it's a new restaurant yeah we get it but almost you actually see that and think oh well they actually just trying to deceive me that this is a really great place that everybody wants to go to I think that's where people don't necessarily see the harm in using it because you think well I'm not doing anything that's out of the ordinary so that's when the disclaimer normally has to go on when it's something that's so clearly fake so

Noel: when something

Lucy Wheeler: couldn't look the way it looks you have to put a disclaimer so they're possibly thinking well a queue of people outside a restaurant there's nothing that couldn't be real about that but then the whole concept has been just generated and yeah it feels like that's like a bit deceiving doesn't it?

Katie: It feels really deceiving and it actually feels like dishonest and then to me it's kind of like well how trustworthy is is this place but actually they might not have you know the the people who are actually in the restaurant might you probably don't have anything to do with it it's been you know handed out to a marketing team or a social media manager and you know the effect that then that that person has in their marketing team on on their business is yeah it's it's not positive at all is it it's quite concerning really.

Noel: There was a lot of comments below it where people have obviously zoomed in and seen what was going on. So there was lots of people like cropping bits out and he said this lady's having a great time and basically her

Lucy Wheeler: jaw was like two foot long and she was trying to eat a burger.

Noel: And someone else had got away and created another AI image to show that the outdoors was completely empty and sparse. It looks more like this. It's like, oh God, it's never

Lucy Wheeler: I think it's really hard, isn't it? Because as you say, it's possibly not even that business itself. And then that's where I think social media managers are going to be one of the biggest industries in a way that are hit by this. Any kind of marketing with email marketing as well in terms of whether it's generated by what's generated and how it's used. And I think also the kind of elements of can you use these kind of things for multiple clients if you're getting ideas from. chat to you pt and it gives you ideas you can have more ideas and then there's potentially more chance for them to be crossover and used between different clients but I think sometimes I think people have come to me and said what about this though what about this risk and they're getting quite concerned I think some of the risks have always been there some of those kind of risks in terms of like oh well what do I do about other clients that's always been there what do I do about co-creation again that kind of copyright element that's always been the risk but it's just normally been with another human so you just kind of need to go back to the original legal position as to what you would do. So if you've got something, if you're a social media manager and you're providing content, what would you normally, what would your restrictions normally be in terms of using content across platforms for different, or across client basis? Yeah.

Katie: That makes a lot of sense. Noel, did you want to ask Lucy about AI agents? Yes.

Noel: Yeah, because obviously with an agent, like they go off. and they figure out tasks themselves and they'll go off and use different tools and figure out how it's going to get to an end goal. So I guess it's kind of like how do we understand, I guess from what the legal standpoint is what, how do we know what data's going where, if it should be going somewhere? Like, you know, are we sending email addresses down a route within an agent that we probably shouldn't be? and things that is kind of how do we manage agents or how should we manage agents I guess

Lucy Wheeler: yeah that's a really great question because again it's about how don't it's very hard to explain sometimes when I say who has got access is what I would normally say who has got access to that email address but obviously it's not who it's which what it's not a real thing and where has got access and that's the thing if you've allowed an agent in that is a big GDPR element to consider And you can easily consider it by just updating your privacy statement to say, we use this AI agent. But again, it's that step of going back that you described before, Noel, of checking. Well, hold on a second. How does that AI agent actually use the data? Because, yeah, if you've set them away in your business, you might be saying, well, it's only all within my business, and you would be responsible for anything the AI agent is doing. And you're thinking, all the emails are going to come still from your domain. your website and email address, but it's the fact that something else has access to that personal information. And that's where I think people may not feel comfortable thinking that something else has access to private information.

Noel: Yeah, especially if it comes to that. I mean, emails is one thing, but it could be all sorts of personal information address, phone numbers. It's all sorts, isn't it?

Lucy Wheeler: Yeah, and there are different, so there's different legislations. There's the EU AI Act, which came in last year, and it's had a phased implementation, and it's been the biggest elements of it. So the bits that are sort of totally unacceptable, but they're like, AI cannot be part of these elements that they've tackled first. And it probably isn't going to be until there's another iteration in August of 2025, and then another one in February, 26th, and it's unlikely to be until the 26th, February or August, when a lot of the elements about transparency, and people using it are actually going to come into effect to prohibit or to make a lot of this really clear within the EU AI Act, but a lot of it's covered already in GDPR, and I think that's what people are missing. And I think that a lot of the big corporations, especially if you do any sort of work with the corporate, they're going to be very wary if you're using AI as to how you do it, because they're wary anyway in terms of how you're using data and how you're handling things and have you got the correct processes and policies in place. So I think if you're somebody that's potentially, say, for example, doing training for a big corporate and you're going to have access to their employee information, they're going to be very, they're going to want a very clear and transparent information as to how you're using AI. And I'm not saying they're going to say, you can't work with us if you use AI. I'm not saying that, but what you'd have to be very careful with is that you fully understand the whole process as you say, if you've got an AI agent, what does it have access to and what implications? Is that potentially in terms of GDPR?

Noel: Yeah. That's really good about transparency because we had on our last episode with Corky Ballas, for his dance studio, he was, oh, you know, I've got this voice agent. So if somebody phones my studio, you know, they can have a chat with my AI assistant kind of thing and they'll help them out with questions. But he said the first thing that it says is, this is AI, you know, this isn't a real person. if you're not happy, press two. If you're happy, press one. And you continue on. Or you just leave a message, you know. So it's kind of, you've got to make it really super clear. That's the biggest takeaway I've had from having to dig into the legal side.

Lucy Wheeler: Yeah. And I think that's what's so interesting is that you've jumped on that point because the law doesn't require transparency in all circumstances now. So if that was a B to B conversation, Right now, the law doesn't require transparency. But when it's business to consumer, it does. So probably in that dance-tree scenario, he's doing the right thing there saying that there needs to be transparency. But the general person, whether they're a business owner or just with a consumer hat, they don't know that there's different regulations. They don't know that some of these haven't come into force yet. And I think that's what's always really important is that you are aware as a business owner or is someone that's using AI that, everyone's come in at it in a different level of knowledge or understanding of what the legal process is and they may make decisions about you and your business based on the disclosures or the transparency model that you've got in place and they may say oh I don't want to work with them because they're not transparent and actually you're legally compliant with the level of transparency you have to have but people don't realize that there's an electric layer for consumers So what I'm trying to say is potentially what often it could, or I don't want to tell people what to do, but what could be best practice is to say, well, this is the transparency that's required. And it may not be required until August 2026 for some elements. But I'm going to do all of that now because it will help me feel confident and it'll help consumers when they're interacting with me or anybody interacting with my business that they can see I'm being transparent. For example, I did something. This was a while ago, it was last year, but I knew that I had to do it. And it was clearly AI, like it was clearly me. I was on a Flamingo promoting a summer sale. I was pretending I was in a pool. But I wasn't. But I put the disclaimers on because I thought it gives people trust, isn't it? And also I'm trying to add by example and say, this is AI generated, like, and trying to show people this is the kind of thing. And it didn't put people off. Like, it didn't think, oh, well, Lucy's not going to. She's not hired a pool and taken all of the photos. That's like that's a rubbish. She should have done that. They're not off by it, but it's putting that disclosure on so people know. As you say, I think if you're, say, a business owner and you're working for the business owners, you'd think something like ManyChat, oh, that's really obvious. Like everybody knows that many chat, what that function looks like when you're in, your direct messages and you're sort of on Instagram messaging people. It looks a certain way, doesn't it? The layout, the formatting, it's very clear. But if you're a consumer, would you know that? If that's the first interaction you've ever had with a bot, you wouldn't necessarily know that that wasn't just me having a function. And I'd said, hey, it's Lucy. And I think that's what's really, like sort of off-putting, that you think you could be having a conversation, or you're on the telephone or in the DMs, with a person. And you've actually been talking to a bot the whole time. I think that's when people then again think, just feel awkward about it.

Katie: Yeah. But it's having that transparency, isn't it, with anything that you can, I think, right now. And it's also remembering, like, about taking 100% responsibility for what you are using within your business. And I feel like that should always be the case. But even more so now, I guess, with AI coming into business. Yeah, definitely. I guess,

Lucy Wheeler: I mean, you'll have to say whether you think there's more scope for things going wrong if AI has been involved. I guess not if people have programmed things in a certain way, but that that responsibility piece is huge as well. That, yeah, you have to be aware almost you've got another member of staff if you've got an AI agent going off sending emails. So what procedures if you put in place to check that? At what point are you going through and checking and updating things? And it's just having those safeguards in in the same way you would if you hired a new member of staff that you'd,

Noel: You would be checking

Lucy Wheeler: that they weren't doing things you didn't want them to do. But, yeah, ultimately the responsibility lies with you, and it can be damaging to the brand. So we had an example where a really well-known coach came to me, find out of mine and said, I've had an issue with AI with this team member because they'd used AI and let something go out, and it hadn't been checked properly. And they were like, where do I stand now? Because I've allowed them to use AI in the business, but it was them that was using AI, but ultimately it's me, and my reputation, and it's coming back on her, and she's like, what happens now? And I think there is this extra element of consideration when you, even with your team and things, but you're right, Katie, it's a hundred percent responsibility is always going to still be for the business. Yeah.

Katie: Lucy, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Honestly, I could talk for hours about this, but we will let us. you go.

Lucy Wheeler: Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for your enthusiasm about it because I think you've made it really accessible. I hope that people will listen to this and think actually this is a conversation. This is something I can get behind. There's lots to consider. But it's not something to not, AI is not something to stop using because there's a legal element. It's just something to be aware of. And I think having this conversation has been brilliant to give people the awareness that they're going to need.

Katie: Yeah. I don't think there's anything to be frightened of or, you know, worried about or to stop using AI, it's just about protecting yourself as much you possibly can as a business owner and just, yeah, I just think as long as you, you know, have tried to make sure that you're using everything, you know, with the right policy, compliance, then yeah, then you're on the right track, I think. We will put the link to Lucy's AI legal toolkit in our show notes, which honestly is fantastic. Like I said, me and Hull were talking about it last night over dinner. I know we are cool. Thank you so much. But it was so interesting. We loved it. And thank you so much for listening to this podcast episode. Like I said, we'll put all of Lucy's details in the show notes below so you can go and check out. Thank you so much.